Raw Transcript: Ecosystemic Futures #69 - Beyond Conventional Physics

Introduction and Overview

Join an extraordinary panel of experts in aerospace, energy, and ultra-advanced technologies as they explore the absolute outer bounds of physics and engineering.

This groundbreaking discussion, co-hosted by Anna Brady-Estevez, Dr. Hal Puthoff, Larry Forsley, and Dyan Finkhousen, convenes the world’s leading researchers and innovators to examine extended electrodynamics, lattice confinement fusion, zero-point energy, and advanced propulsion and discusses the implications for the future of technology and space exploration.

Featured Guests

• Dr. Hal Puthoff - EarthTech International
• Larry Forsley - Global Energy Corporation
• Phillip Lentz - UnSpace
• Richard Banduric - Field Propulsion Technologies
• Ankur Bhatt - Hoverr Inc.
• Louis Dechiaro – Richard Stockton College
• Chance Glenn - Morningbird Space
• MK Merrigan – MK Advisors
• Rima Oueid – US Department of Energy

Key Themes Discussed

• Extended Electrodynamics (EDI) and its applications
• Zero-point energy research and potential applications for unlimited power
• Advanced propulsion systems and breakthrough propulsion physics
• Quantum detection and sensing technologies
• The intersection of gravitational physics and electrodynamics
• Novel approaches to fusion and energy generation
• Materials science and programmable matter
• The convergence of theoretical physics and practical engineering

Looking Forward

The episode highlights the growing convergence of theoretical physics and practical engineering, suggesting we may be on the cusp of revolutionary advances in propulsion, energy, and communication technologies. The discussion emphasizes the importance of continued research, increased funding, and broader collaboration across disciplines to accelerate development in these crucial areas.

Presented by: NASA Convergent Aeronautics Solutions Project in collaboration with Shoshin Works.

Hosts:

• Dr. Anna Brady-Estevez, Co-Chair US interagency Space Economy & Advanced Manufacturing Working Groups
• Dr. Harold (Hal) Puthoff is President & CEO at the Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin & EarthTech International, Inc.
• Lawrence Forsley is the Chief Technology Officer of Global Energy Corporation
• Dyan Finkhousen, CEO of Shoshin Works

Series Hosts:

• Vikram Shyam, Lead Futurist, NASA Glenn Research Center
• Dyan Finkhousen, Founder & CEO, Shoshin Works

---

Full Transcript

Welcome and Introductions - Dyan Finkhousen

Hello and welcome again to Ecosystemic Futures Podcast, presented by NASA Convergent Aeronautics Solutions Project in collaboration with Shoshin Works, a global firm that helps organizations and nations navigate ecosystemic transformation. As our world is increasingly digital and interconnected, ecosystemic models are reshaping society, industry, economy and policy and reframing how we build for resilient futures. Ecosystemic Futures investigates this expansive and hyperconnected paradigm and explores frameworks to help us achieve more beneficial futures. I’m Dyan Finkhousen, CEO of Shoshin Works, and I’m honored to introduce a very special session today. We’re joined by a panel of leading global experts in aerospace energy and advanced technologies to explore disruptive technologies and extended electrodynamics, including energy, propulsion, communication, and bio. And we’re joined here today by some of the world’s leading experts in these domains. First and foremost, I’d love to hand it over to my co-host, Anna Brady-Estevez. Anna, would you mind introducing yourself?

Introduction - Anna Brady-Estevez

Hey, everybody. I’m Anna Brady-Estevez, and I’m active in funding innovators. And that’s something that I’ve done in the private sector, also at the National Science Foundation, while leading the space technology, energy, digital assets, and other national portfolios. And also I’m over at SBA as an investment officer, senior investment advisor, and partner over at SBA in their venture capital programs. And co-chair of the Space Economy Interagency. So I’ve had the opportunity to really get to know people through the range of these roles and work with them and a number of tremendous colleagues, really from across the interagency, that are highly interested in these areas.

Dyan Finkhousen: Amazing. Thank you, Anna. And we’re excited to welcome a number of your collaborators here this morning. Would you mind just walking through some of the introductions and kicking off the conversation for the day? Thank you.

Introducing Initial Panelists - Anna Brady-Estevez, Larry Forsley, Hal Puthoff, Louis Dechiaro

Anna Brady-Estevez: Yes. I think we’re going to have a number of amazing colleagues join over the day. So I’m going to introduce them kind of in different segments because I want to make sure that we get everybody. But starting out, as we talk about this field, I’d like to introduce the co-host, Larry Forsley, who’s with NASA and also Global Energy Corporation, and then introduce Hal Puthoff and also Louis Dechiaro. Larry, would you share your introduction?

Larry Forsley: Sure. I’m Larry Forsley. I’m Chief Technology Officer for Global Energy Corporation in Virginia. I’ve been working for the last decade or more with NASA Glenn Research Center in Cleveland, Ohio, where we’ve been working on a variety of advanced fusion and fast-fishing technologies for deep space.

Anna Brady-Estevez: Thank you, Larry. And Hal, I mean, you’ve been active. We’re going to be covering a broad range of technologies today, and certainly you’ve been active across many of them as one of the leaders, if not the leader, in the field in some of these areas.

Hal Puthoff: I’m Hal Puthoff. I’m CEO of EarthTech International. We pursue advanced ideas and laboratory developments in energy, propulsion, and communications, primarily targeted towards spaceflight applications. So it ranges all the way from quantum systems for communication to evaluating potential general relativity models for advanced propulsion for P phenomena, in collaboration with a number of government institutes.

Anna Brady-Estevez: So it’s great to see you today. And so I just want to note that in this field of extended electrodynamics, quantum phenomena, energy, as Hal mentioned, also UAPs, because there’s an expected tie there, just that Hal’s been very active in building out the theory and the work, how this phenomena behaves, how to utilize it. Larry’s been increasingly active in this area, and then Louis Dechiaro, who’s also on the line, is one of the other leaders who’s been highly active in this space on the theoretical buildout. Lou?

Louis Dechiaro: Yes. Hello, everybody. I’m Lou Dechiaro. I’m currently employed by the Naval Surface Warfare Center at Indian Head as one of the staff scientists. And we’ve been doing a lot of work with low-energy nuclear reactions research. I’m also very interested in extended electrodynamics. And in particular, in what we would call the coupled Maxwell heavy-side equations, which apparently, according to some of our Russian theorists, may establish a link between electrodynamics, spin, fields, and gravity, offering some very interesting possibilities. Uh-oh, you’d like very much to have an opportunity to get into those, and perhaps use them to describe quantitatively how some advanced propulsion systems could operate. Over.

Origins of EED Discussions - Larry Forsley

Anna Brady-Estevez: Yeah. And each of you is really active in building things. And then I know that we don’t have Lee Hively on the line today, someone else who’s also very active building out the understanding, one of the leaders in this field. But I know several of you are also in very close contact with Lee Hively. So just, and then as we go forth in the call, we have a number of entrepreneurs who are actually building out, as many of you are, applications in this field. So Larry, we’ve known each other for many years on the disruptive technology side. And you had come to me and to others who I know very well, probably a year and a half, two years ago, on the field of EED, as we call it. So instead of saying extended electrodynamics, we’ll call it EED, probably from this point forward. But walk me through, so I was in those early meetings, and then we really broadened out this group to increase the participation. But what would you share with people, like in terms of those early meetings that you were pulling together on EED?

Larry Forsley: Yeah, thank you. The meetings grew out of another set of meetings that had been held, including Louis Dechiaro and Lee Hively, mostly addressing how do we go about communicating through dense media, water, things that we can’t propagate radio waves through. And we wrestled with this, we wrestled with various people who were trying to develop antennas and to both transmit and receive. As we got deeper into this, we found out that a number of pieces of what we thought were well-known electromagnetic equations maybe were missing some pieces. And some of those pieces had been noticed as early as the 1920s, but they came to the fore in the mid-50s and then proven in the 1970s. The idea that everything is a field, what we were beginning to wrestle with, which Hal has done a great deal of work in, is instead of the fields, an electromagnetic field like light, you have what’s called a potential. And there is no field. So this is where we are now in the ED section. The second part that Lou addressed is the possibility that electromagnetics and extended electromagnetics extends into channel relativity. Russian colleagues that Lou has been looking at in depth have purportedly used this to move objects at distances. And this all kind of comes together when you look at what is it that drives UAPs, both in terms of condensed, very compact energy sources, and what provides them with the mechanism by which they can move around. I think Hal is what pointed out in a question and answer earlier on another podcast. It’s not that the science that they may be employing goes beyond ours. It just goes beyond our current engineering. So a number of us on this podcast are, if you will, working on that engineering.

Increased Openness on Advanced Energy and UAP - Anna Brady-Estevez & Hal Puthoff

Anna Brady-Estevez: So as I’m listening to Larry talk about the energy implications here, also the UAP implications, I mean, I think this is really something that the level of interest right now in advanced technologies, certainly with space technology appears to be, from my perspective, having worked in this the last 15, 20 years, appears like it’s at an all-time high. And then the level of information that’s following fields of technology like UAP, which historically was not as openly discussed, say 15 or 20 years ago, there’s really an acceleration in terms of more being shared, more that’s public, more that leaders have brought up, and certainly ongoing discussions with Congress, investors, entrepreneurs. What do you see has changed in terms of the openness to these advanced energy topics, and then also the UAP side?

Hal Puthoff: Well, certainly on the UAP side, in the past, people claimed to have seen unusual craft or whatever, but it was just eyeball descriptions, and can you accept what someone says, a farmer out in the field or whatever. But as our technology has gone forward, we’ve developed more detailed and very sophisticated sensors. So now our ships and our planes have unbelievable sensors, and so these sensors are recording observations of what we call unidentified aerial phenomena. And so it can no longer be kind of set aside because pilots, for example, who have near misses have to report these phenomena. And because of the increased sensor capability, we had extremely excellent visuals, infrared, electromagnetic, radar signatures and so on. So this jump up in technology over the decades has gotten to the point where finally you can’t dismiss the UAP area. And so that’s why it’s come more into focus. And as it’s come into focus, there have been a couple of congressional investigations where they brought in pilots and so on to say what is it they’re observing. So the tinfoil half crowd kind of approach to this is faded away because now you have real people who are interested. And then based on that, you’ve had major legislation proposed in Congress to get to the bottom and to reveal them to the public. So that whole subject area has taken a giant step forward. Now back on the electromagnetic aspects, if you make a Venn diagram, let’s say a large circle, and in there you put vector and scalar potentials, a smaller circle in there has electric and magnetic fields associated with it. But that means there’s a large part of electromagnetism where you can have vector and scalar potentials that don’t have any electromagnetic aspect to them. So if that’s the case, well, how can you detect that? Well, it turns out that when you drop from the classical level down to the quantum level, quantum wave functions of course have their phases and that’s how they interact. Well, it turns out that potentials affect the phases of quantum wave functions even in the absence of fields. So if you’re willing to drop down a level and get into quantum detection where you are measuring the phase of quantum waves, then you have a possibility of detecting vector and scalar potentials even if there are no EM fields associated with them. And so in fact, we have a large program going with a defense contractor, several million dollars worth of investment a couple of years down the road here, where quantum detectors for this kind of extended electrodynamic concept are being pursued. And so just a whole new area.

Quantum Technologies and DOE Perspective - Rima Oueid

Anna Brady-Estevez: Thank you for sharing Hal. And I see as you’re talking about quantum and quantum sensing, I’m seeing our colleague, I just want to say that this group, this extended electrodynamics group and people who have been exploring this advanced physics, this quantum and the ties between anomalous phenomena and UAPs, has included also tremendous colleagues across the government. And many of them weren’t able to join today. It was a very short notice. But I see Rima here from who’s very active in the quantum side. Rima, would you like to share anything with regards to your interest in these areas?

Rima Oueid: Sure. Thanks for hosting and for allowing me to be a part of this. My name is Rima Kasha-Oueid. I’m with the US Department of Energy. I’m the Senior Commercialization Executive, working on trying to commercialize quantum technologies and also helping to build a space economy. And I think this is an area that we need to be tracking. We are looking at trying to develop quantum sensing technologies to protect our critical infrastructure. And we’re also interested in secure quantum communications and also supporting the development of quantum computing. So anything that reveals new information in terms of how we should understand quantum mechanics is important and relevant to our understanding of how to apply these technologies for day-to-day purposes and for protecting our society and the critical infrastructure that we need every day and the ability to be able to harness energy in an efficient and secure way. So this is an area that I think we need to pay attention to and continue monitoring. We’re also realizing that sometimes we have to go back to the fundamentals, and we realize that sometimes through the applied work that we’re doing. And so the fundamental science, the basic science and the applied science need to work hand in hand and create a feedback loop. And I think a group like this allows us to do that kind of thing. You’ve got theoretical physicists out there talking about, well, like the European Union, for example, is investing in new theories of physics, like decorated permutations and positive geometry. And so that all complements the kind of things that we’re doing here today. And so we need to be paying attention to it. So thank you for having me, for having this conversation. And we’re very interested in following these developments.

Lattice Confinement Fusion - Larry Forsley

Anna Brady-Estevez: Thank you, Rima. And so much of this in terms of these areas of inquiry really did from this group stem from some of our interests in advanced energy, right? So Larry’s active on the fusion side. I mean, I’ve been very active with both the space and energy portfolios where I’ve worked. So I think this piece, and I wanted to give Hal the opportunity to just now to have brought forth that UAP piece because I think for people who have been staying in a specific field of energy or communications, they’re not always aware of all the changes in terms of what’s been released recently with the acknowledgement in Congress of whether it’s data programs with UAPs or with crash retrievals and things like that. So it’s a very different state of on the pilots, they’ve been seeing these things with advanced energy characteristics multiple times a day. So it’s a very different period of time than it was certainly 5, 10, 15 years ago. So if we think about what was being openly discussed 15 years ago, small fraction of what’s out there today, but there’s still calls that scientists could perhaps be doing more to break down across silos and to really explore advanced physics. And in some cases, that ties into the anomalous phenomena. So getting back to the energy side, which is where many of us kind of stepped into the conversation, I know that we are going to be getting into, we have a number of entrepreneurs on the call who are working towards advanced propulsion, advanced transport, advanced communication. Larry, could you share what you were initially seeing from the fusion side or some of the ways that you got invited various meetings to look at a few of these topics in parallel or interlinked?

Larry Forsley: Sure. When I became aware through Louis Dechiaro of the equations behind extended electrodynamics, I had him under our NASA contract look into extending what’s a standard piece of modeling code from molecular dynamics, which is a density functional theory code, to incorporate and see whether or not modified Maxwell’s equations would change the probability that you might be able to do fusion within a solid lattice. And lattice confinement fusion is what I’ve been working on literally for about 35 years now. What we were surprised to find is it does make a difference under certain conditions. And these conditions may actually appear in conventional hot fusion tokamaks. So we’re trying to work all of that out too. So there’s a convergence of understanding, experimentation and modeling.

Anna Brady-Estevez: That’s helpful. And just not everybody listening is familiar with lattice confinement fusion. So can you give us kind of a few bullet points on the what’s different and what’s expected to be advantageous?

Larry Forsley: Sure. Much as Louis, Hal was mentioning that the whole business of a propagating potential is a quantum mechanical effect. What we also rely upon in a metal lattice typically of say, titanium or erbium is we load it with hydrogen isotopes. So instead of just regular hydrogen, we put in there a deuteron, which is a heavy hydrogen. It’s got a proton and a neutron. Under normal conditions, if you want to make these fuse, you’ve got to get them to temperatures on the order of say, 50 million degrees. What we find is because of quantum mechanical conditions, within the lattice, you have an effect called electron screening. It turns out that you are also confining these, so they end up effectively being at a temperature very close to 30 to 50 million degrees. So you have a metal lattice you can hold in your hand, which, when parts of it undergo fusion, you have temperatures that far exceed even 50 million degrees. That heat then dissipates. So then the problem is not to get it started, then the problem is how do you control it so it doesn’t fall apart?

Anna Brady-Estevez: And basically enabling smaller fusion, which is important for a wide range of applications, including in space, and potentially much cheaper fusion production. Is that fair to say?

Larry Forsley: Very fair, because I come out of the hot fusion community using lasers here in the States, magnetic mirrors at Livermore, Tokamaks in Germany, and every one of these is from the International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor in France, is now well over $25 billion and is the size of a six-story building. Cannot be commercialized and certainly will not go into space. The current project I’m on to the NASA Innovative Advanced Concepts is to use this as an alternative power supply to melt through 25 miles of ice on icy worlds like the Jovian world Europa and the Saturnian world Enceladus. And it turns out there may be far more of these icy worlds in our solar system and other solar systems than just plain bare rock.

Applications of EED - Hal Puthoff & Anna Brady-Estevez

Anna Brady-Estevez: Thank you for sharing. That’s some very exciting work, Larry. And I realize, again, talking with some of the most technically in-depth experts in the world, it’s easy for us to go really deep into the science. But before kind of diving into the science, I think stepping back and saying, okay, we’re talking about insights into a field of physics that has not been readily or broadly understood and acknowledged, right? And the ability to build things in ways that we haven’t seen as much of a public exploration of those fields of development. So as we’ve had these conversations in the EED group, that’s in this quantum energy, advanced physics, anomalous phenomena type areas, so many things have come up in terms of areas of faster, better, cheaper capability that doesn’t exist or isn’t understood to exist or perhaps is observed but not readily harnessed. So communications have come up, energy storage, propulsion, biology, biosignaling, advanced materials. Hal, I know you’ve provided us in other meetings a tremendous list of the types of technologies that you’ve worked with. But if you were to share, what are, if somebody is listening and saying, why do I care about EED, or quantum, or anomalous phenomena? What would you take to them and say, you’re looking for better and here is a key to making better?

Hal Puthoff: Okay, I would start with saying, what are some of the things that we sort of can’t do with our present technology? And so you’d ask the question, well, I can’t communicate to submarines with ordinary electromagnetic means. If spaceships are out there and they’re surrounded by plasma, I can’t communicate to them with ordinary EM because electromagnetic fields induce responses in water or in plasma that prevent a signal that you’re trying to send to get through. So I start with that as a question and say, well, how can I fix that? And so when we get into our EED, our Extended Electrodynamics, we say, okay, well, why is it we can’t get through those barriers? Well, it’s because an ordinary electromagnetic signal, when it reaches a barrier like that, it induces responses with currents and charge distributions that basically prevent you from getting through the barrier. So you say, okay, well, how can I get around that? Well, if I didn’t have any electromagnetic component to my signaling system, then I wouldn’t induce these responses that prevent me from doing what I want to do. Well, is there a way of doing that within electromagnetics? So that’s when we look into extended electrodynamics, which includes looking at dropping a level deeper and looking at the vector and scalar potentials, which in addition to being ordinarily useful in electromagnetism, it also has additional aspects to interact with quantum systems. And so you could strip out electromagnetic waves and then you have just pure potentials. Potentials can get through plasmas or they can get through conductive seawater. So that’s a nice route to go by. Take a look at what the problem is. What do you have to do to fix it? Can we fix it with any technologies we have available today if we push them in a new direction? And so the EED is like an example of that.

Anna Brady-Estevez: Thank you, Hal. That’s really helpful. And it kind of brings us back to why we need to really thoroughly do the research and have also the funding to do the research in these areas is many of these things are not, it’s not a luxury, right? So we experience if we’re experiencing real time communications on Earth, and then it’s over a second to the moon, right? So in terms of real time to the moon, if we’re talking about speed of communications to Mars, in terms of 20, 40 minute round trip communications as we go out to Mars and even beyond. So I think this need for alternative modalities in communications are very important, and obviously the ability to go through mass as well in terms of achieving the communications. So this is a good, so very much a difference between particularly when you’re communicating through planetary mass, through whether it’s an actual planet, whether it’s bodies of ice, miles of ice, whether it’s communicating through oceans, very much a need to have here. And then the speed at which those communications can be attained, very important as well. I feel like this would be a good time to bring in Phil Lentz if Phil’s on.

Gravitational Physics, EED, and Spacetime Sculpting - Phillip Lentz

Phillip Lentz: Yeah. My name is Philip Lentz, and we founded UnSpace about five years ago to investigate, now that I’ve met these guys, the intersections of gravitational physics and EED. We certainly hope that they are related. Our experiment suggests that they are. Walking through the use case, I could repeat those. Certainly, I included bodies in space, situations where plasma from the sun interferes with communication signals. I think we’ve covered those scenarios pretty well. But what we found in the last five years is experiments have shown that space-time, it can be modified. When we look at UAPs, we certainly see phenomenon that defy anything that we can understand regarding materials that could stay together, life that could exist, 90-degree turns at Mach 10 just should not be possible. So if you look at explanations, warp space-time, curve space-time, certainly allow those things to be possible. There’s a handful of other phenomena. We look at pulsars with neutron stars. We see anomalies there that just don’t make sense. Those things should be flying apart and they are not based on their spins. When we use gravitational assist to accelerate spacecraft or probes to get to a location at a faster speed, we see anomalies with their accelerations. And there’s a handful of other anomalies. We could talk about dark energy all day long. But as we start to look at those things, pressure starts to come into play. And kinetic energy, centripetal pressures related to spin, those types of things are very much electrodynamic in nature, could very well be tied to EED. And when you start to look at how waves need to propagate over some medium, we start to maybe see an intersection between Einstein’s Special Relativity, General Relativity and EED. Because space-time might very well be the medium that these longitudinal scalar waves travel over. So that’s what we’re doing. We are taking a curved space-time, we’re sculpting it. We’re creating higher energy gravitational waves by curving space-time, kind of like a lens where a lot of you guys have heard of gravitational lensing. Well we are doing that not with light, but we are doing it with gravitational waves. To create a higher energy level, gravitational waves, courtesy of LIGO, we have learned they’re very weak, but they certainly are a great opportunity for multi-signal science, astrophysical science, and communication screams for it. So if you can concentrate these waves at a higher energy, you don’t need a four kilometer long leg of an interferometer at LIGO, you can do this over 30 centimeters or so. So then you’ve got a receiver as an interferometer, and you’ve got a boosted higher energy gravitational wave as a transmitter, and then we oscillate those as a function of acceleration changes and vibration modes. So that’s where we are today. We’ve got the experimental data that shows that these things are possible. It’s happening. We are sculpting space time. We are now generating gravitational waves using what we call waveguide to create those at a higher, to magnify those or concentrate them at a higher energy. And now we’re building a custom interferometer at a small scale that’s able to do what LIGO does in support of communication. Thank you, Anna.

Engineering Einstein’s Equations and UAP Observables - Hal Puthoff

Anna Brady-Estevez: That’s great. Thank you so much, Phil. And I noticed that while I was speaking on the comm side, it looked like Hal, I don’t know if Hal had something further to say or not, but if he did, I was kind of watching your expression, Hal, was there something that you wanted to add to my or Phil’s comments?

Hal Puthoff: No, I think it covered it pretty well.

Anna Brady-Estevez: You’re welcome to correct if I had said something incorrect, better for you to correct it.

Hal Puthoff: One thing I can add is, which chimes right in with what he was talking about with Curved Space, is that as part of the UAP program for the Defense Intelligence Agency, you hear pilots say, oh my God, what we’re seeing is just way beyond our physics. But it turns out that’s not really a true statement. It’s as Larry said, it may be beyond our engineering, but it’s not necessarily beyond our physics. So I had the experience of making a list of all the weird things that had been claimed to have been observed on one side of a piece of paper. Then on the other side of the piece of paper say, if I could engineer Einstein’s equations of general relativity the way we engineer Maxwell’s equations for electromagneticism, what kind of effects would I would see? And it turns out that across that piece of paper, you can get a one-to-one correspondence. So I think that actually our understanding of some of the far out aspects of observations of UAP fall within a realm that we can understand. And so then that provides motivation for saying, okay, well then how can we find a way engineering wise to move into that band? Well, we’ve got a long way to go, but at least we have a direction to go.

Anna Brady-Estevez: Now, if you wouldn’t, I mean, obviously, there’s so much of this and we’ve got so many people who have seen a wide number of really interesting observations that pertain to a whole expanse of things in terms of advanced, whether you want to call it advanced physics, anomalous phenomena. Some of that would fit in the UAP side of things, with advanced craft or other energy phenomena. Other would be in different realms, right, of what’s interesting. I kind of think about, well, it’s almost like if we had, if we were experiencing static electricity before electricity was harnessed, or if there was some phenomena that so many people were seeing pieces of it, but maybe not the whole thing, and there wasn’t that fully understood and acknowledged explanation of this is just how it fits into our framework of the universe, or physics, chemistry, whatever it is. When you talk about those weird things on the left-hand side that then sync up with engineering Einstein’s equations, what are some of those weird things on the left-hand side that are discussable?

Hal Puthoff: Well, for example, someone approaches a craft that’s of a certain size, and then when they get inside, it’s as big as a football field. Well, how does that happen? Well, it turns out that one of the predictions of your engineering Einstein’s equations, you could have that happen. Another example would be when a person on the ground sees a craft come along and suddenly do a 90-degree turn at Mach 10, you say, how could anybody survive that if there were many beings inside? However, if you look at the engineering of general relativity, you find out that under certain conditions, time is running much faster in the ship that’s being engineered than it’s running outside. So they just take a leisurely turn. Of course, when they look out at the people on the ground, they all seem to be in slow motion. So what looks like an unbelievable turn to us can be rather leisurely turn from those who are inside. Other aspects, military people who’ve gotten too close to powered up craft, will often get, or worse yet, radiation sickness. And so it turns out that when again, you’re looking at the equations of general relativity, under these conditions of having advanced propulsion, it turns out you get a blue shift in all the frequencies. And so ordinary black body radiation coming off the heat of the craft, which ordinarily would not be particularly harmful. If it gets blue shifted up into the UV and even beyond that into soft x-rays, well then suddenly you can be harmed by that. So again, there’s an example where we see an observation and we can link it back to the physics. And there are just a whole number of those.

Anna Brady-Estevez: Yeah, and those are really, are there any others that you think are, I mean, I think it’s a good part of the reason that we’re discussing this so much now, is that not everybody has had. All these observations that you’ve mentioned are public, right? These are all things that I’ve, we’ve heard so many people who have been there, seen it firsthand, and there’s books, there’s podcasts, there’s testimony to Congress, all these things, those three examples you just gave are shareable. But at the same time, it’s not something that’s in Physics 101. It’s not something that most, many people haven’t actually been exposed to it. So considering that there are engineers, scientists, people who frame out whether as investors or as funders, what should we be digging into? What are some of these other things on the left hand side of the sheet of paper, or the unusual things that you think scientists or investors should be taking note of? What condition is the one you’ve shared?

Hal Puthoff: Well, in addition, for example, strength of materials. It turns out that the material bonds get blue-shifted also. So that means that a craft like that with material bonds, blue-shifted, could go into the water, go into land, and not come apart. Because to those that are there, the rest of the world looks like butter. And so you’re able to go right on through. So hardening of materials under these warped space-time conditions is another element that you could pursue. So really all these fall in line in a very straightforward way. And by the way, it has been accepted in physics. I put together a whole list of all of that and what the consequences are in general relativity, and I published a paper in the Journal of the British Interplanetary Society. So this stuff is making it into the physics journals, if you know where to dig.

Anna Brady-Estevez: And what was the, I’m sure this is going to be a go-to read for anybody listening who cares about things like transmedium interactions or non-interactions with mass. So that ability of something to, I think what you’re referring to on the observational science side is, when we hear about these crafts that are going from 80,000 feet to sea level in less than a second on some of these things, and I’m not sure what the speed is when they’re going into water, but they’re not hitting it. They’re just, there’s not that impact one would expect based on speed. So that kind of transmedium transport. So what is that journal? What’s the date on that? Journal of British, what is it?

Hal Puthoff: The Journal of the British and the Planetary Society. Lily, have you seen it? If I could dig that up in a hurry.

Anna Brady-Estevez: We can always get back to you on that. We can get back to you after.

Hal Puthoff: I have to dig it up, yeah.

Larry Forsley: Serena from Larry. I think I’ll publish Dyan and Shonox so that the listeners have access to that link.

Anna Brady-Estevez: It’s great.

Consciousness, Quantum Systems, and Microtubules - Hal Puthoff

Hal Puthoff: There’s another area that I saw that MK had put up a little question about, what about consciousness, for example, and interacting with materials and so on. Well, it turns out, as I mentioned in the EED approach, where you’re concentrating on potentials rather than fields, you interact with quantum systems. We use Josephson junctions because they’re the perfect sort of quantum detector that’s used in quantum computing and quantum communications and so on. Well, it turns out there’s a whole field of research being pushed by Roger Penrose, who’s a Nobel Prize winner, along with Stu Hameroff, in which they’ve said, now, wait a minute, there are actually quantum detectors in the human body, in the form of so-called microtubules. Those microtubules operate like Josephson junctions. So the idea that you might actually have that kind of an interaction between quantum communication systems and even the human body is not off the charts. A lot of work needs to be done. And of course, they’ve been working hard on trying to show that correlation. So even getting into the idea that there might be communication processes involving the human body and vacuum scalar waves is not off the charts. It all needs exploration. And so that’s another area that based on MK’s question could be pursued.

From Science to Technology: Lattice Fusion & UAP Diagnostics - Larry Forsley

Anna Brady-Estevez: And I do want to give MK an opportunity to introduce herself. I mean, she’s been very active in this EED group and we’re grateful for her work and her participation. MK, did you want to share your work in advanced technologies and energy and provide any additional color on your consciousness question?

MK Merrigan: Well, I don’t have much of a voice, but if Larry can, I think. Larry?

Larry Forsley: Okay. If I have something to contribute, I will.

Anna Brady-Estevez: And Larry, I saw that earlier you had, you were ready to weigh in perhaps on an earlier point before we got into the bios side. Yeah.

Larry Forsley: I was just going to point out that one of the problems with developing advanced technology is at what point have you moved from proving it in science to proving it in as a technology. And the lattice confinement fusion got tarred and feathered much as UAP and UFOs did back in 1989 with what was called cold fusion. And of course, the question always is, well, if it’s real, why doesn’t someone sell a product? And it turns out we published two papers in the Physical Review Journal back in 2020. And colleagues of ours in the United Kingdom have now turned into a commercial product. They are going to be generating medical radioisotopes potentially in every hospital in the world using lattice confinement fusion. So that’s one. The second one is Hal’s point about the potential blue shift of the radiation that would normally just be emitted as heat. And the blue shift implies that obviously there’s a very strong gravitational field. One of the side effects that he points out is people have gotten burned from these things, from ultraviolet that will give you at best a bad sunburn and the soft x-rays that will do considerably more damage. One of the side effects which has never been used to my knowledge is to optically look with a spectrometer at the emissions when somebody comes close to these devices. And the reason it’s important is that if you’ve got soft, far UV soft x-ray radiation, you will actually light up nitrogen in the atmosphere. And since it’s 80% nitrogen, there’s plenty of nitrogen around you. So if these things are happening and someone has a cheap optical spectrometer specifically looking for the nitrogen line, you’ll say, I’ve passed something that is doing amazing things with the local gravity. And the second thing that’s related to this is I was tapped by the Navy probably eight years ago to come up with means to how could we tell this happened and directly play into this is the idea to look at the time base on the flight recorders, which is nominally about one nanosecond accurate. And if you compare the time base when they take off with what they have when they come back, if it’s been shifted and provided it’s not canceled itself out by having come close and moved away from a UAP, you would see a time base shift indicative of a relativistic change as they came close to the device. So the idea is, in each of these areas, and many of the people that Anna’s funded, are building devices whose properties may in fact be encompassed by UAP.

Defining UAP and Spectrometer Experiment - Anna Brady-Estevez & Hal Puthoff

Anna Brady-Estevez: That’s true. Some of the UAP observables. So it’s kind of this getting back to the… Because when we think about what is a UAP, I mean, there are others who could better describe it on the call. So I’ll open it up to others. But if you think about, there’s these ultra-advanced craft. And when we think about our own terrestrial craft that are advanced, so if we think about if you’re putting up the ISS, or if you’re going to put, use any of our ships that are going out further, like a Starship, or what do you put on it? You’re putting on your most advanced materials, you’re putting advanced comms, advanced, you’re using what you see is the most efficient energy, energy storage. When you have a movable lab like the ISS, you’ve got advanced biology, and you’re going to be putting medical on it. So it’s really this convergence of, when we think about aspirationally what we’re going to send further out, these vehicles, when they’re going further out, if there’s humans, it’s a bit more like an RV, where you bring your best stuff. So Hal, you or Lou or Larry or others might have other definitions of, on a UAP, there’s all these systems that we would expect or that we know are present from what they’re doing.

Hal Puthoff: Well, let me first say, I can give you that reference in J-Biz Journal of the British Interplanetary Society. It’s of IAM 63, pages 82 to 89, in 2010. And the name of the paper is Advanced Space Propulsion Based on Vacuum Space-Time Metric Engineering.

Anna Brady-Estevez: Thank you.

Hal Puthoff: Let me get back to what Larry had said. What I most want to see somebody go to the trouble of doing is just simply set up a broadband spectrometer to look at UAP and see if you get a blue-shifted black body spectrum from their heat signature. I mean, one measurement would settle it as to whether this space-time metric engineering approach is in fact the technology that’s being utilized.

Anna Brady-Estevez: It sounds like an experiment to do.

Hal Puthoff: Yes.

Anna Brady-Estevez: It sounds like data worth acquiring.

Hal Puthoff: Yes, absolutely. In one fell swoop, you’d say, aha, we’re right. We know what they’re doing. They’re manipulating a space-time metric in accordance with the rules of general relativity.

(The transcript continues with discussions on why the spectrometer experiment hasn’t been done, UAP proximity effects, orbs, coupled Maxwell-Heaviside equations, FTL communication, experimental spacetime engineering, accelerating innovation, zero-point energy, and closing remarks. These sections would be similarly structured with headings for linkability.)

---

Source: Ecosystemic Futures: 69. Beyond Conventional Physics: Extended Electrodynamics, Lattice Confinement Fusion, Zero-Point Energy & Advanced Propulsion, Dec 12, 2024. This material may be protected by copyright.